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Episodes

× 1: Setting the Scene - Portland OR 2: The Murder of Mulugeta Seraw 3: Building Community Defense 4: The Minneapolis Baldies and Anti Racist Action 5: They Thought We Were Everywhere: the Portland ARA 6: House Defense 7: A Research Capacity: The Work of the CHD 8: SHARPer Times 9: The Story of Jon Bair 10: Less Booted, More Suited 11: Nothing is Final Bonus Episodes

Episode Eight Transcript

Episode Eight: SHARPer Times


MIC CRENSHAW

This podcast contains lots of swearing and violence, occasional use of the N word, and other content that some people may find disturbing or offensive.

MICHAEL CLARK

I'm just, I'm gonna own right here that I was actually born and raised pretty racist. I'm from a little teeny town where we rode bulls, and uncles are cowboys, and tote guns, and all that stuff. But I didn't know any better, like I didn't have anyone around, But my aunt also took in foster kids. I have a lot of foster cousins, some Hispanic, a couple of young men from India. We were all together. We were all family. We were all brothers. We're all just people. We are no different. You're from here. You're from there. Everyone is flailing, everyone's faking it till they make it. So as I was getting a little older, I started putting two and two together that actually, the white power guys were creating a bunch of BS for everybody. So it really lost its power for me.

CELINA FLORES

That was Michael Clark, who took what was called ‘direct action’ to kick nazi scum out of the Rose City. Welcome to Episode Eight of It Did Happen Here: SHARPer Times. In this episode, we hear from the people who were part of SHARP - Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice. I’m Celina Flores,

MIC

And I’m Mic Crenshaw. You may remember Michael Clark from episode one.

MICHAEL CLARK

13, 14 new pair of Docs, walking down Woodstock Boulevard...

MIC

His family moved from rural Oregon to Northeast Portland in the mid 80s where he attended Grant and Madison High School.

MICHAEL CLARK (in background)

...and two carloads, guys pull up, “hey little. . .,” you know, yelling at me: “give up the boots!”

MIC

He was a teenage skater and punk rocker. Here he describes his world as a teenage punk in Portland back in the late 1980s:

MICHAEL CLARK

There was a lot of racial violence in Portland at that time. I've witnessed shootouts with AK 47s in school parking lots, and drive-bys, and mass beatings, and stabbings, and all kinds of stuff. Also gay bashing was very prominent down by Stark Street. Definitely a lot of crazy stuff. So, late 80’s, early 90’s; I was already clean and sober. I quit drinking the first time at 13. So, I was pretty much a straight edge little punk rock kid. I knew skinheads from being out at shows and they hung out with all their white power buddies and they went everywhere and caused chaos. You would go to a show and the pit would be all the nazi guys. And pretty much you were gonna, you know, you were gonna get hammered if you got in the pit, so we would group up and go and get hammered, you know? As like a 13, 14 year old kid, being threatened by people. It powered, my need to, to get brotherhood, and to be in a group where I wasn't afraid anymore, where I wasn't afraid to say that I didn't like what you were saying. And then Mic came from Minneapolis area. ARA was getting started.

CELINA

Anti-Racist Action, or, ARA, was the collective brainchild of the anti-racist skinhead group, the Minneapolis Baldies. ARA organized first regionally, and then in 1988 or '89, made their first trip to Portland. Local skinheads and activists welcomed the support of the Baldies, who came to help organize and were a big influence on the local scene. When Michael refers to, "when Mic came to town," he’s talking about Mic Crenshaw, my co-host.

MICHAEL CLARK

ARA used to meet in the apartment next door to mine, downtown. And then we would all party. Some of that rubbed off on me and Mike's brother moved out and he and I became best friends. And it's a crazy thing that just seems totally implausible. But your own belief system coincides a little bit with this person's, and theirs rubs off on you, and they're stronger and tougher. You want to emulate them. And that is, especially when you're young, how your belief systems evolve, right? It's like what you choose to be exposed to, what your parents expose you to. I definitely got introduced to a lot of more political ideas. I'm not gonna be here and act like I was altruistic or something. That anti-racist mindset rubbed off on me from the people I was around, who understood that it was a more serious issue. I bought into that, and I was more than happy to go help make a difference. I wasn't, like, leading the charge that this is some moral and ethical positive thing. I wish that I could say I was, that would be kind of cool, but, but that wasn't exactly what happened. there are a lot of skinheads that I've been friends with for a long time since then, that were members of ARA, and who really worked within the parameters of the, of the beliefs in how to portray yourself, and what to get caught doing, and what not to get caught doing. Anti-Racist Action, really political, and politics always made me crazy. I believe in anti-racism 100%, and I believe it takes what it takes. One of the things for me personally, that kept me from getting more involved was too many rules. It's what people would nowadays call "very woke," right? You couldn't call a girl the B word. You had to be okay with everyone being gay, you had to be okay with everything, which, which I don't have any issue with. But it was like, I'm an old timer and I'm kind of slow, so like, I can't get woke all at once. And how woke can you be over the course of 6 months? So maybe I'll say it was morally intimidating. And over time I needed a place without all the clutter of all the political, like social movements. And then SHARP came around, and then SHARP was kinda the same thing, but you know, you could be violent if it was under these circumstances and it was totally cool and that was a little better. So I tended to gravitate over time from the more political to, "we're two-tone, we're working class, were not dealing with your Nazi BS. And if you look at me sideways, I get to punch you in the face." Which was kinda what I needed at the time.

MIC

At the onset of the 90s, a Portland chapter of Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice–what you have already heard referred to as ‘SHARP’– coalesced out of a crew of kids who had been fighting neo-nazi skinheads. As Michael noted, these kids were loosely organized–they did not have the intergenerational foundation, critique, and social diversity of the Coalition for Human Dignity and were less ideological than ARA.

CELINA

In the early 90s SHARP skins held an informal first line of defense against neo-nazi skinheads, especially in the clubs.

MIC

For a hot minute, SHARP and ARA were synonymous as multiracial coalitions of young punks and skins who approached the challenge of antiracism through directly confronting nazis in the punk scene. But as 1990 rolled into 1991, SHARPs emerged as a unique identity. While SHARP skins worked with the CHD on house defense operations and helped with security at demonstrations organized by various leftist groups, membership in SHARP was loose. As Michael says, SHARPs had few rules regarding conduct, and they didn’t have regular meetings. They were loyal to skinhead culture and held to a highly particular look–bomber jacket, Doc Martens, suspenders, button-up shirts, and of course a shaved head. A consistent feature of SHARP attire was some kind insignia declaring allegiance to anti-racism; typically a SHARP patch featured a stylized Spartan helmet design based on the logo for the UK’s Trojan Records. And they were SHARPS down to their shoes–yellow laces on black boots flagged the wearer as an anti-racist; white shoelaces on black boots represented white power; red signified either a communist or a neo-nazi so that was a little confusing; purple shoelaces identified queer solidarity; and black shoelaces were, well, black shoelaces. It’s important to note that not all skinheads adhered to the codes of colored laces and their implications.

CELINA

SHARPs would identify a nazi at a show and surround them in the pit. Any kid wearing a bomber jacket or white shoelaces at any show space was guaranteed interrogation at the very least. Like their racist counterparts, SHARPs moved through the city in crews looking for fights, though their victims were the white power skinheads who preyed on the vulnerable. SHARPs were booted up and ready to go, whenever, wherever.

MIC

One of those fighters was CHINA, the punk rocker we’ve heard from throughout the podcast. Here she talks about the informal beginnings of the punks who formed the core group of ARA and SHARP:

CHINA

There may have been more organized things that I didn't know about, but as far as I'm concerned, it wasn't some highly organized process. It was a group of us that were already, that knew each other, and that were already together, that were doing, like fighting the nazis in the streets daily. We had no backing, just our own conviction. A couple of the guys were gay and that we were also standing up for people in that lifestyle that were getting harassed. We understood intrinsically that this bullying and othering people and abuse was wrong. I mean, there was probably more in-depth things, but at my age and at that time, that's what I kind of understood. We were just, anti-fascist. You know, we weren't going around and picking fights, well, there was some people that might have started fights, but I think we were just wanting to be left alone.

CELINA

The city experienced a distressing spike in neo-nazi hate crime and violence on the streets and at punk shows following the murder of Mulugeta Seraw. The punks and skins who had been informally standing up to and fighting neo nazis started coming together hanging out, sticking up for each other.

CHINA

I started to see a formation of a, something that turned into being anti-racist.

MIC

Yeah.

CHINA

And then it was after that you guys came, ARA popped up, Sharp popped up. See, you guys might have been the bringers of SHARP.

MIC

So there was a handful of Baldies that came out here, before I got here.

CHINA

OK! Yeah, maybe that was it!

MIC

Yeah, we were catalytic in the sense that, I think it inspired people to become more militant with their anti-racism.

CHINA

OK, yeah.

MIC

After we, at least that's how the folklore went.

MIC

The early days of SHARP and ARA where blurred lines between punk subcultures that abruptly became more distinct. The neo-nazis had recruited so aggressively and so fast among young punks and skinheads that plenty of the kids still hung out with racist skinheads one night and spiky punks on the next; as ARA, SHARP, and the CHD came together to kick nazis out of the scene, the neo-nazi crews rapidly declined in numbers.

CHINA

I was definitely part of Anti-Racist Action. I was hanging pretty deep with Sharp. I think I would consider myself a SHARP member, but I also don't consider myself a skinhead, if that makes any sense. Just because we were together and we were kind of fighting some of the same fight. Back in those days, there were people that were like skinheads, and then they would, like, jump ship and become anti-racist. So, there was a lot of this back and forth. We're talking about young people. And I remember bringing some people that had changed from being Nazis to wanting to be anti-racist. I mean, the Nazis were doing evil stuff, they would even attack each other, you know, so I mean, I think it was a pretty clear line of right and wrong, so there was actually people that wanted to get out of that. I just would, like, bring people to meetings and stuff, but I mean, I wasn't like a top organizer, but just bringing people in.

MIC

China and Michael Clark talk about their experience with fighting neo nazis on the streets of Portland:

MICHAEL CLARK

SHARP had a lot of documentation, they really explained a lot of ideology, and a lot of why things, why things are a certain way. Anytime, you know, they're bringing people into the fold, you kind of, you kind of have to have ways to educate them. But I didn't get a lot of that. By the time I really got super involved in things, I think we had reached a point in Portland where it was pretty much just free-for-all chaos.

CHINA

We were fighting out of what we saw in our heart, what we felt, what we'd experienced. We were reacting in a very visceral and intense, gut reaction to what was, to the violence that was happening.

MICHAEL CLARK

I can tell you that the people I hung out with, if you brought some nazi BS to me or the crew that I ran with, or the people that we hung around with, you might get your face cut off with a broken pint glass, you might end up getting your head stomped in by 10 guys. You definitely were going to get something broken. And you're going to hear about, that what you were bringing to the table was unacceptable. So to have that power back, and to not have to walk into a place and eyeball everything that's going on, and to step from a position of, "am I safe here? Do I need to watch my back here?" to “anybody who's bringing that better watch their back,” was huge and powerful. And there was a lot of that.

CHINA

Being someone who has to fight in the street, you know that you have to get in a mental state, right, to be that person. I mean, you can switch. I mean, it's like being, I want to say it's like being a soldier. ‘Cause people nowadays are shocked if I were to tell them. But if I see somebody, or something kind of weird happens, I feel that tension. I'm ready. You know, and as a mother, I'm ready. But I, I had to work so hard to step away from that.

MICHAEL CLARK

There were a lot of riots. 60 nazis and their girlfriends, and them starting something and then like 80 skinhead anti-fascists, and then the general public joining in, and smashing nazis in the middle of Pioneer Square in an all-out riot. I think that we set a precedent where they weren't tolerated, wherever they were at.

CHINA

There was a group of us, Tran and [inaudible], she would drive around and we started like, coming at these Nazis because they'd been harassing us for years. There was a group of people that were non-white, those Tawne. . . [inaudible] was kind of in a different group, but he would like, pop in every now and then. There was a group of us that were seriously challenging Nazis and, and that felt good, you know, it felt like I wasn't alone for once. And that when I challenged them, there was going to be somebody behind me, you know.

MIC

I always wanted to get closer with you guys, because when I came out here, I was immediately adopted by the Sharps. But again, outside of like, Johnson Tanno and Tawne, they were all white. I remember seeing Tran and you're around, and being like, wanting to be like, closer to y’all. I had to also distance myself from the scene, because I just got tired of being the only black person. And I had to question like, “oh, I'm an anti-racist skinhead,” but I'm still like, the only black person for miles around. [laughter] Like, what am I really doing over here? You know?

MICHAEL CLARK

I always enjoyed smashing racists and setting people in their place. It did get to the point to where if you spouted off some racist shit, if you walked through downtown with an iron cross, you, you might be in trouble. If you talked smack about, "oh, you skinheads, you think you're so tough," well then, we were gonna start showing you why we thought we were, you know, so.

CHINA

I remember Jonathan Mozzochi was driving a van. There's all these skinheads downtown and I remember driving up to this gas station. I saw these dummies, like skinheads standing there. And I was like “are you white pride?” And he was like, “yeah.” I slapped him. “Are you white pride?” “Yeah.” I slapped him. “Are you white pride?” And I slapped him. I slapped all three of them, jumped back in the van and drove away. I mean, we were on such a high like, yeah, coming into our like, who we were in like, no, this is not gonna work. That was a good feeling. I mean, I don't want to glorify violence.

MIC

As the SHARPs put the boneheads more and more on the run, escalation was inevitable. Here's M Treloar from the Coalition for Human Dignity:

M TRELOAR

So the boneheads fought with, with fists and knives, and then eventually, when they became more organized, they were told and they learned, "oh, if we're going after these people, somebody's got to bring a gun." I would say that they armed up way before we did. It's also inevitable in neo-fascist organizing, is to go from: “we're going to give a speech here,” to “we're going to come after people with guns.” Because they're not gonna, they're not gonna win in a public debate, unless sooner or later, they bring out the guns. And, generally that's been the basis on which they've either said okay, we'll do bank expropriations, or we'll attack Black communities, we’ll attack synagogues, etc. They're always armed. They replicated that here in Portland fairly rapidly, going from a bunch of teenagers with baseball bats to a bunch of teenagers with AK 47s and 45s. Early on, at one of the apartment buildings that SHARP skins were sleeping at, a group of nazi boneheads rolled up with guns and attempted to break in. And if they’d gotten in, they probably would have killed some of them then and there. One of the SHARP crew, a 15-year-old woman, jumped out in front with a can of mace and just pepper sprayed everybody. All of the boneheads, and a bunch of her people, that drove them away. At that point, we assisted SHARP in getting some weapons for purposes of defense. From then on, I think, the wiser of them got their own weapons. And that was also true among some of the ARA people.

CELINA

Music journalist Patrick Mazza, who wrote for the left wing Portland Alliance newspaper, shares a sense of the larger Portland scene, and touches on some of the increasing tension between SHARP, the police, and the response of some of their allies.

PATRICK MAZZA

This is what I wrote then: But while ARA has been moving against racists, its activities are being overshadowed by one of its ally groups, the Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice, also known as the SHARPs. The national organization has had a local chapter here for about six months, but over recent months, SHARPs and racist skinheads have been involved in a number of fights. “Most weekends lately, relations between the two factions have been punctured by brawls and beer bottles tossed through windshields,” says Loren Christensen, a Portland Police Gang Enforcement officer. “Just who is inciting violence is the subject of conflicting stories,” Christensen said. The last three weekends in April. Also physical conflict between racist skins and SHARPs. He says SHARPs started the violence the first two weekends, while the racists began on the third weekend. That sequence, which occurred on April 27the and April 29the, saw a group of racist skins attack an apartment at Southeast 32nd and Belmont, where SHARPs lived. “We've been getting attacked by nazi SHARPs,” spokesperson Mark Newman maintains. Police quote “are trying to make us look like bad guys.” Newman says the SHARPs are not a criminal gang. “We're an organization that has banded together to fight racism.” You have Karen Keel, from ARA. Keel believes SHARP members should now step back from confrontation with racist skinheads and let other anti-racists take care of the job. Mozzochi, that was Jonathan Mozzochi of Coalition for Human Dignity, who believes that the media has overemphasized the SHARPs' comments, “they are part of a much larger anti-bigotry youth movement. So far police and other forces in the city have defined their relation to that movement as adversarial.”

CELINA

Every movement has growing pains. People who had been fighting the against the neo-nazi violence for years found themselves criticized by newcomers, which created a challenging dynamic that often follows a general call to action.

CHINA

Just being toned policed, and like, action policed, by people being self righteous about their punk rockness, and their peace movement and all their ideologies. And me having to put my ass on the line to defend myself and stand up for others, backing up their ideology. And they were just sitting there feeling self-righteous.

MICHAEL CLARK

It became, with all the political constraints, I think it became harder and harder for people to, to get things done.

MIC

The brawls were as ferocious as ever, and the spread of guns increased the violence to a far more lethal level. We’ve heard previously from Anti-Racist Action member Jorin; here he is describing the local environment at the time:

JORIN

I imagine that the toll it took on the broader community was actually probably more of the people who were not as actively involved. There were times where it felt pretty dangerous to walk down the street. And I imagined that there were some punk kids who had nothing to do with any of this that ended up getting their asses kicked because they were assumed to be part of ARA. I think for those of us that had really bought into it, on some level, we knew the consequences. We knew the risks we were taking. I think that changed a little bit when things got a lot more violent.

CELINA

In addition to daily confrontation with neo-nazis, SHARP was also constantly harassed by the Portland Police Bureau who targeted the SHARPs but maintained a mostly hands-off approach to addressing behavior of racist skinheads. The Gang Enforcement Team reported an escalation of dangerous youth gang activity rather than coordinated, sophisticated efforts to confront racists who enjoyed political and financial support locally and nationally. The media, and thus the public–ate it up. This put the SHARPs in the limelight as gangsters, and deprived them of the civic support of the very people they were struggling to protect–not unlike today’s Black Lives Matter protesters. Meet Jon Bair, who was an activist and SHARP member from SE Portland.

JON BAIR

A lot of the guys who were involved in the racist groups were pretty typical white guys that you'd see in your neighborhood and they weren't very different than what we see with the Proud Boys and the Patriot Prayer types, more so the Proud Boys. They had a similar relationship with the police in that they seemed to be preferred. I believe the police exist to protect the powerful and our groups existed to protect those who don't have power. And so, the motivations are really different right from the beginning, which kind of puts us at odds with the police. But white supremacy is not a threat to the police. Some racist groups, when they get a bunch of weapons and they want to go after the police, are a threat. But for the most part, people who hold racist views, that's not a threat to law enforcement.

MIC

Jonathan Mozzochi from the Coalition for Human Dignity addresses ongoing frustrations with persistent police mischaracterization of anti-fascist youth:

JONATHAN MOZZOCHI

When we were doing this work, the Portland Police Bureau and state cops treated all of this stuff as gang activity. Their entire worldview of this, they understood everything through this very narrow lens of law and order and gangs. Then Anti-Racist Action, a multi-racial group, that was fighting racists in the street, they were one gang, and you know, the East Side White Pride, or whoever was another gang. We of course had a very different perspective on this. There was one officer in particular Loren Christensen in the Portland Police Bureau, who was the point person on all of this. He was, I think, the most important person in the State Gang Task Force, within which a lot of the police intelligence was collected on the racist right, and on Anti-Racist Action and Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice, and Christensen was their guy. He, repeatedly in these early years, in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s, would attack Anti-Racist Action and Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice as being violent gangs, no better than the racists. That this was angry youth off the rails, and that we just have to have a firmer hand, and this will all go away. And it created an environment within which it was ok for the far right to attack people of color, and to attack ARA and SHARP activists, because this guy's saying it's just a gang thing, right?

CHINA

I mean, the police knew about us. They've called it. . . I remember one time I got a call and they didn't know. Because I'm black, if I was a skinhead, or a Blood, or a Crip, it was so stupid, like, really?

CELINA

The police were flat footed in their response to racist skinheads.

MIC

CHD activist M Treloar recounts an incident.

M TRELOAR

Laurelhurst Park on Hitler's birthday. We had heard the boneheads had announced that they were going to meet there, so SHARP, ARA, Lesbian Community Project, and Coalition for Human Dignity all said, "we'll have a picnic there." Scot Nakagawa and I were there. We went over and talked to some of the other picnickers in the area, ask how everything was going, everybody said, "fine," so we left. Shortly thereafter, 50 cops showed up. They harassed everybody and forced them to leave the park. So there was no reason for that. But then the Oregonian wrote that the Portland Police had busted up a neo-nazi rally in Laurelhurst Park, which they could only have gotten that information from the Portland Police and the FBI. We decided we got to do something. They're just continually getting this wrong. And they're deliberately getting this wrong. So they're blurring the distinction between anti-racist skinheads and neo-fascist skinheads. And they're blurring the distinction between those of us who oppose the nazis and the nazis themselves. So, we responded with an op ed piece that they printed, where we pointed out they had gotten everything wrong. So, the Oregonian was embarrassed. They should have been ashamed and they stopped calling SHARP a gang from thereafter.

CELINA

The anything goes attitude of the SHARPs combined with their culture of violence began to wear on the local affiliations. SHARP maintained good allyship with members of the Coalition for Human Dignity–who, in turn, always stood up for SHARP in public and treated the group overall with respect. But cracks appeared in the bridge between the different organizations and this, at times, made working with the SHARPs a challenge. Here's Steven Gardiner of the Coalition for Human Dignity:

STEVEN GARDINER

Having political strategy conversations with SHARP skins to say, “look, you guys are doing great work, let's look at your overall politics. What about misogyny? What about anti-queer stuff? You know, do you, do you really want that hanging around your neck, when you're trying to do this anti-racist work? It's not enough just to be anti-Nazi.”

MIC

Another Portland SHARP member was Pete Little. In the mid 1990s, homeless and jobless, he moved from a conservative Christian town on the outskirts to Portland where the blunt, straightforward politics of the Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice quickly engaged his deep sense of justice.

PETE LITTLE

There was very little political education in the anti-racist skinhead scene except for, we don't like racists and we don't like Nazis. That's useful and is a draw, it was a draw to me, it was a draw to other young folks who just kind of intuitively got anti-fascism and it appealed to them. I think it also had drawbacks. There's a difference between strategic militance and militance for its own sake. Without some political development of political conception, it's very easy to direct that energy in ways that become self defeating, self destructive or just aren't effective.

CELINA

SHARP was the most visible anti-fascist presence in Portland, especially within the punk scene. The willingness of the SHARPs to consistently engage on the most dangerous terrain and put their bodies in the way of hostile threats and real peril gave them a measure of respect from many people. Cecil Prescod offers a reminder to those of us whose work is not on the front lines:

CECIL PRESCOD

Many times you have these thought-shaping individuals who can make the goals reasonable to a more mainstream audience. And then you have the people who are willing to be right there in downtown at that rally or to do this action, the actors who will be those who are in the middle of the street, in the middle of the action. They are going to be misunderstood. And they're going to be mislabeled. That's a reality. That's what's going to happen. The people who are willing to risk are people who should be appreciated.

MIC

By 1992 the combined efforts of the anti-racist Portlanders began to turn the tide, at least as far as punk shows and open attacks on the streets. As activists armed with undercover intelligence undermined the ability for blatant racists to live and work in Portland, overt presence of boneheads dwindled. They were not eradicated–their proliferation today contradicts that fantasy. Even though the boneheads were increasingly scarce, they were still a threat–especially to the SHARPs. Neo-nazis sometimes did drive-bys. Lone SHARPs were always at risk of being jumped. As local pressure cleared fascists from the public arena, the fight against neo-nazis went underground. At parties, rumors of a nazi skin at a corner store often led to a mass exodus as SHARPs jumped into their cars to find the nazis; they carried the fight to them wherever they went. Drug and alcohol use was widespread across the scene; people were traumatized. They were fighting the neo-nazis, the cops and the public opinion. Many also had to deal with personal demons. Even if they had no regrets, there weren't a lot of people who understood what they were a part of, what they'd seen, and what they'd done. So they really only had each other. SHARP eventually fractured into several different crews. Pete gives a long look back.

PETE LITTLE

Fascism can’t be defeated by a subculture. If a subculture places militance over politics, and politics to me being, like, the development of the critical capacities of all the participants in the movement to whatever potential they have, but also the ability to have a collective evaluation and engagement on tactics and strategy. It's a long list of folks who brought me up, or who came up with me, who are now dead. And addiction and trauma, and like, you know, they are pretty significant as the reasons for that. And I can certainly say that a lot of that trauma, addiction, and violence as well, was certainly, you know, emerged as a consequence of the militarization or the prioritization of violence as methodology for confronting these folks. And I think that any anti-fascist struggle will be confronted by violence, and will have to have a capacity to defend itself. But I think as well, it raises the question of the importance of a social movement that can also care for the people who are wounded by the consequences of that. And I think too, a lot of that violence, and a lot of that millitance may not have been productive or worthwhile, you know, which is a painful thing to look back on when you think about people you know and love who are no longer here, yeah. And I think it's easy to glorify militance and confrontation. There will be elements of a struggle to defeat these people that mean that that's necessary, but I think that it's really important to develop a thinking, self-critical movement that really utilizes those tools as sparingly as possible.

ERIN YANKE

Thanks for listening to Episode Eight of It Did Happen Here. There are show notes with links, transcripts, and other relevant content at our website : ItDidHappenHerePodcast.com. You can also listen to the podcast on the KBOO website, and on mainstream platforms like Stitcher, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts. Thanks for leaving reviews and spreading the word. This episode, interviews by Celina Flores, Mic Crenshaw, Barbara Bernstein, and Erin Yanke and your hosts were Celina Flores and Mic Crenshaw. This podcast is produced by Celina, Mic, and me, Erin Yanke. Our next episode, number Nine, the Story of Jon Bair, will be out January 15th. Music in this episode is by The Fucked Up Beat, Miku, and LG17 from the Free Music Archive, and also by A Touch of Hysteria. Thanks to the bands for the music, thanks to the participants for sharing their stories and experiences, thanks to Pan and Pete Deegan for research help, and thanks to the Marla Davis Fund, KBOO Community Radio, and to the rest of our production team: Icky A, Julie Perini, and Moe Bowstern, and thank you for listening. We’ll go out on Resist’s 1990 rager, "History 101." Thanks for listening!